Erin B. ([info]catchstars) wrote in [info]fatshionista,
2008-03-19 19:17:00
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Inbetweenies

Something that isn't often addressed critically in this community is what it means to be an inbetweenie (someone who typically wears between size 12 and 18, and can sometimes wear straight sizes in addition to plus sizes) in the context of fat activism and fat fashion. A lot of the recent posts that touch on it hit on the issues superficially: "I gained ten pounds and am too big for an XL at Aeropostale or Abercrombie! Where can I buy hoodies?" or a commenter remarking, "You aren't fat, you just have really big boobs!"

(Apologies in advance for my female-centric language in this post, but it seems to me that the concept of "inbetweenies" is more prevalent among people wearing clothing designed for women than among those who wear clothing designed for men. Anyone has had experiences to the contrary, please pipe up!)

The hourglass figure is a problematic point in this community and other fat-acceptance/fat activist groups. Some say that at a basic biological level, we are hardwired to be attracted to this kind of figure. Others say that the hourglass has been normalized by late 19th century and 20th century media and held as an ideal in much the same way waif-like models are. Regardless of the origins, the hourglass is frequently held up as "the most beautiful" shape. Body acceptance means accepting all bodies, and it can be challenging to fight these biases and hold other shapes in esteem when hourglass shapes are touted as "perfect" or "hot" within the community. All radical communities have to fight setting their version of Barbie up as the zenith of beauty. I say radical, because the act of being fat and unapologetic is radical in today's climate of thin bodies. Why do we feel we will gain cultural cachet by scaling up the standards held to thin bodies to build our own standard? Why should we care about these standards at all?

"Curvaceous" and "fat" are not mutually exclusive. However, curvaceous figures are often considered fat, because like fat, it implies a fullness of shape and weight. Still, one can be curvaceous yet wear a small clothing size. Beyonce Knowles and Kate Winslet are good examples of this. Without invalidating the experiences of people who identify as fat but do not wear plus sized clothes, are bodies of this type truly fat, or are they "othered" by expectations of a slender body?

Most people who participate in this community have a difficult time finding clothes, including inbetweenies. Yes, it is difficult to find clothing for an hourglass figure at junior's stores, because most clothing in that size range is designed for a straight-hipped figure with B-or-C cup breasts. However, size 12 is still easier to find than size 16, and 16 is easier to find than 24. Sizes above that are rarely encountered in brick-and-mortar stores. Anyone who can readily find clothes in a size that fits them is privileged in that they have little worry in clothing themselves reasonably. (Fashionably is another matter.) Does this mean we need to feel crushing guilt about privilege? What it does mean is that we need to be aware that the clothes posted about by people who take a size 10 or 12 are simply not available to a large percentage of the people in the community because they aren't manufactured in plus sizes. Is a dress from a typical teenage junior size store like Forever 21 or Sirens fat fashion? Could it be a useful post for other people in the community if it is approached with sensitivity and information on the fit of the piece? "I bought this dress at Macy's in the straight size juniors section, and the bust is really stretchy and the fabric is thick enough so it doesn't become see through or tatty looking when it stretches. I take a 42 D bra, and wear a 16 pant at Lane Bryant, so folks with similar bodies may want to check it out" is infinitely more useful than, "I wore my Lululemon yoga pants to work today."

What is the place of an inbetweenie in a fat arena?

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  • 186 comments

[info]xchernobellex

March 20 2008, 09:14:36 UTC 4 years ago

As an extreme hourglass, with trouble finding bottoms (but relativly ok luck finding tops), I can really feel what you are getting at. I hate it when I, an 18 on bottom, go into a community and post a waist up shot, only to get, "Your not fat!" or, "You don't look plus sized..." and feeling as though I need to take a picture of my ass next to something for fat-validation. Shit, thats one of the reasons I haven't posted here -- fear of being told I'm, 'not REALLY plus sized!' despite the fact that, small boobs aside, I very often AM just that!

I personally find the, "Hey, I found this straight size 13 in wherever Juinors that works on my size 18 body fine! I'm about X"X tall and xxxlbs, tend to carry it in hips/bust/waist/knees/wherever. " Waaay more useful then, "I'm thinking about Igigi; are they good?"

[info]gnomeprincess

March 20 2008, 12:15:23 UTC 4 years ago

Doesn't that make you a pear rather than an hourglass?

[info]xchernobellex

4 years ago

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[info]charpuppy

March 20 2008, 09:25:07 UTC 4 years ago

Even in the past couple years, I've worn everything from a size 10-22. I've spent most of my life as an inbetweenie. But I've definitely never stopped feeling like I was the fat girl, and I've always had trouble finding clothes that fit. At my smallest, most cute, trendy junior clothes were too small, and the plus size clothes were all too big. How annoying! (According to BMI charts, I was still obese, so I think I still qualified as fat.)

Oh yay for things that are stretchy. Honestly I don't think anything that isn't stretchy ever quite fits me right. Weirdly enough, I think I felt fatter when I was a size 12 than I do now at a 16. It's hard to say who's fat and who isn't. Just about all women think they're fat.

I think inbetweenies are the object of a great deal of the fat hatred in the US. There's a lot of us around. Many of the fashionable fatshionistas posting here seem to fall in the 12-18 range.

I dunno if any of this is relevant to what your asking or if I'm just rambling. But anyway... I think inbetweenies are fat!

[info]onceupon

March 20 2008, 10:48:23 UTC 4 years ago

ALL fatties are the target of fat hatred in the US. The inbetweenie, I think, has a hard time of it because they are so close to cultural "acceptability" but I have serious issues with the implication that they "have it worse" - not just because that's always a losing game but because larger fat folks are ABSOLUTELY the target of some truly disgusting fat hatred and it bothers me to think you might be dismissing that.

And I agree that inbetweenies are fat - I think it is a fat with a different set of privileges than larger fat folk and that's an interesting discussion to have.

[info]sundaysunday

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[info]onceupon

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[info]elizawrites

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[info]lilacsigil

March 20 2008, 09:34:22 UTC 4 years ago

It's the respect that's critical, I think - there's not a lot of supportive places for any women (and probably men) who are outside the purview of fashion design. My mother considered me unacceptably fat when I was a 12-year-old wearing size 12 clothing, and that was a lot more devastating than being a 33-year-old who wears size 22 on top and 28 on the bottom! I'd hate to see someone else in the same vulnerable situation put down as "not enough" of anything. By the same token, it was a lot easier to find clothes when I was size 14 top/18 bottom, and I'd expect respect for my fashion problems and victories in return, from people who wear clothes available in typical stores or who are a more socially acceptable shape.

[info]cyclothemia

March 20 2008, 09:38:09 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah. It's funny you mention that, because I have photos and outfits in which I look more like a size 14 than the size 22 I am on the bottom. I have an extremely small waist and large juicy hips. And I've been told before I don't look plus sized at all.
Regardless how I LOOK, fact of the thing is that my top half can fit shirts that're easy to find, and my bottom half needs trousers that're almost impossible to find.
I'll take fashion tips/info from anywhere.
I also want to add something I think the fat community tends to forget (not this one in particular)- really slender girls, esp those whose natural weight range falls in the underweight BMI category, have difficulty finding clothes, and deal with prejudice as bad (and, at least in the Bay Area and IME, sometimes worse) than fat girls. "Too skinny" is just as unpleasant in my mind as "too fat", and are also "othered" by the inability to find clothes that reflect the variety of their sizes.
Not that this particular community should discuss it, but I just think it's important to remember that fat bodies are not the only ones "othered" in society.

[info]burnedxoutxstar

March 20 2008, 16:09:21 UTC 4 years ago

I totally agree. Growing up as "the fat girl" I was teased but actually I think my very thin best friend took more verbal abuse from our jr high classmates. The "taboo" of calling someone fat to their face had caught on with some kids, but they hadn't quite wrapped their heads around the fact that it is just as hurtful to ask someone "hey are you anorexic? eat something".

[info]pinsandbeetles

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[info]burnedxoutxstar

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[info]yencommakris

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[info]mikomb

March 20 2008, 10:43:06 UTC 4 years ago

Personally, I feel like if a size 0 wants to be a part of our community and is genuinely interested in body image issues and not in feeling hot compared to everyone else, so be it. If someone posts here and is told, "you're not fat!" it basically defeats the whole purpose of this community to begin with, that all bodies are acceptable and to be loved and dressed well.

[info]onceupon

March 20 2008, 10:46:07 UTC 4 years ago

All bodies are acceptable but not all bodies are fat. That's why there is no size requirement for membership and we have many members in all sizes. However, it is a FAT-politics community, thus the size limitation on the photo posts.

And telling someone "you aren't fat" is never cool.

[info]mikomb

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[info]onceupon

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[info]mikomb

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[info]onceupon

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[info]onceupon

March 20 2008, 10:44:51 UTC 4 years ago

I think this is a really important question and one that needs more air time in fatshionista.

The truth is that the fat experience of a person who can sometimes shop in straight sizes is different from a person who can't shop at stores at all. And while I don't think it ever needs to become a matter of "who has it worse" because that sort of thing is incredibly devisive, I do think those differences need to be acknowledged, especially when it comes to clothing privilege.

I'm never going to tell a size 12 that they aren't fat. As sticky as it gets, fat is still pretty mutable.

But if I see another post from an inbetweenie full of nothing but Anthropologie and Aeropostale with absolutely no acknowledgment of the privilege the wearer has, being able to shop there, I might just, well, I don't know. But I doubt it will be good for my mental health. Particularly when those are the OotDs that get a million comments about how gorgeous the poster is - there is a serious disparity in the responses to inbetweenies and the responses to larger fat folk. That isn't even MY experience, so it isn't sour grapes, it's just something I've noticed and that other people have discussed with me. I think creates an atmosphere where larger people are less likely to post, which is deeply unfortunate. I don't think there are, statistically, that many fewer of us, after all.

I think, in many ways, it must suck to be an inbetweenie because, culturally, one is SO CLOSE to acceptability. But it also sucks to not be able to shop at more than two stores in the mall - IF one can even shop in those.

[info]sweeny_todd

March 20 2008, 11:20:32 UTC 4 years ago

Particularly when those are the OotDs that get a million comments about how gorgeous the poster is - there is a serious disparity in the responses to inbetweenies and the responses to larger fat folk.

this pretty much sums up my feelings too. many of the posts are not about the fashion but ZOMG you are so hot. This is not bad in itself, but when the body is being lauded because it is on the thinner end of the spectrum, it just feels so wrong!

on a slightly different note, I always thought that you were on the smaller end? it's interesting how peoples impressions and perceptions differ so greatly.

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[info]katie_ah

March 20 2008, 11:21:59 UTC 4 years ago

Everybody has a hard time finding clothes. I think fat people have to take an extra step to get what we need, but all of my friends, from 0 to 28 all have a hard time finding clothes that fit right, look nice, etc. etc. I do not feel a 'crushing' need to guilt them about the fact, it's just not that big of a deal for me, I guess, I've accepted it and have moved on. I think if people do feel that need that says something more about their emotional maturity than anything else.

I'm not even going to touch 'shape privilege' with a ten foot pole. Arbitrary standards of beauty are everywhere and we're all attracted to whatever it is we're attracted to. Period.

As far the 'inclusion' of inbetweenies here, I'm pretty on the fence about it. I guess there is no 'litmus' test for fat, but I really to question the motives of someone that is less than say, a size 14 participating here and posting OOtDs. I don't think it's so much about clothing sizes to me, it's just more of a sense of community. I mean, is someone that is say, a size 12, really going to be able to relate much to someone that's a size 28? Sympathies and everything else are nice, but the fact of the matter is these two people are going to have very different experiences in this realm, and I personally would like to have a place to see fat people talk about fat people and fashions. I'm wouldn't exactly be overjoyed seeing a size 12 girl that bought something in the juniors department because it was 'surprisingly stretchy' showing it off here, on the other hand, it could give me an idea for an outfit that I want to do or something. Like I said, I'm on the fence, and at the end of the day, I don't really care about the political ramifications of including and inbetweenie in the 'fat movement' or in this community. I just wanna see some hot plus-sized ladies looking good, and maybe get some ideas so I can look good too.

Wow, sorry, my comment is tl;dr.

[info]polianarchy

March 20 2008, 14:21:26 UTC 4 years ago

i read it anyway, SO THERE!

my friends who wear an XS and/or petite have just as much trouble as i do shopping for clothes. it flat out SUCKS to be 31 years old and very curvy, and be told to shop in the kid's or junior's section because my friend is only 4'9".

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[info]charlottezweb

March 20 2008, 12:25:23 UTC 4 years ago

Looking at your points separately, I remember being so frustrated when I was a 12-14 the first time in college. I couldn't find or didn't know how to find clothes anywhere. I was too small for LB and too big for everywhere else, or so it seemed. My best friend at the time was a fairly standard (in terms of fit) size 6 so it seemed like I was some freakish outlier, unable to shop at Express and Victoria's Secret. I was too absorbed in my own experience to look around me and see everyone's else's issues with fit and fashion. After graduating, my girlfriend was 5 feet tall and a size 0-2. Nothing fit her anywhere. We shopped together, both ranting and sharing the same frustrations. My point here is that it's easy, as an inbetweenie, I think, to feel that we have fewer or more frustrating choices because we're caught in the middle of the sizing range, so close to clothes that fit on either side but not quite there. What's important to remember is that so is almost everyone else, at either end of the range. Of course, the issue is complicated when we move beyond clothes to the fact that one end of the range is socially acceptable and one isn't.

As to the hourglass figure vs fat issue...it irritates the crap out of me when magazines/websites call those women fat or larger or zaftig or anything. I'll take voluptuous but just barely. Not that they aren't gorgeous, but an hourglass figure does not a fat women make. Even America Ferrar isn't fat--she just looks big next to the hollywood thin women on the red carpet with her. I have an hourglass figure--when I weigh 150, I'm not fat, but when I weigh 250, I am. (I have a hormone disorder--weight fluctuation is a familiar face here.)

I definitely don't experience that same fat hatred at 200lbs that I do at 300lbs. It's a huge, no pun intended, difference.

I'm rambling now but I'll say that I would like to hear more specific clothes posts, and it would be fine if they included clothes that are considered straight size. Since my top is about a 12/14, it would be useful, to me, to hear from others in the same boat. Also, I would love to see more pics from women on the larger end of the range--I'm sorry if I've contributed to a feeling that those pics are wanted!

[info]petitfour

March 20 2008, 14:08:52 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah that always bugged me, America Ferrara is a size 8/10. Bah! I should repost my ANTM plus model rant here one of these days.

[info]petitfour

March 20 2008, 12:53:55 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  March 20 2008, 13:36:34 UTC

Yeah well I'm a size 16 hourglass, nowhere near a size 12, and because of all of this wailing about hourglass figures I no longer feel welcome posting my own photos here. Tough nuts for me I suppose.

And we're not playing oppression olympics here but I can see why people react the way they do, mostly because yeah, my day to day issues are absolutely pitiful compared to what someone who is 50, 100 or 300lbs larger than me experiences on a daily basis. Dresses are cut to fit shapes that not all women have and it can be intensely more frustrating to try and dress the way you want at an apple shaped 300lbs than it is to find a hoodie in an XXL when you're a 210lb pear.

That being said, I will concede that not all inbetweenies are fat in my own opinion, but that when I hear people complain it makes me want to claw my eyes out.

I would like to see more larger ladies post again, because I already have my merit badge in Surprisingly Stretchy, and I learn new things from how they dress without fighting their shapes. If you want inbetweenies to post less, well that's a little sticky, but the easiest thing is to encourage larger women to post more. I'm an inbetweenie and I can't post for them soooo well, you know.

[info]bias_cut

March 20 2008, 13:42:59 UTC 4 years ago

"because of all of this wailing about hourglass figures I no longer feel welcome posting my own photos here."

How is a discussion about shape privilege "wailing?"

And if you think that the OP (or anyone) was implying that in betweenies shouldn't post here, then I'm sorry to say that you missed the point.

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[info]artemis44

March 20 2008, 13:30:12 UTC 4 years ago

I also sometimes get discouraged by some of the "OMG You're So Pretty!" comments, but then I realize that often it's about a certain aesthetic that is very youth-culture oriented, and of course, true "fashion" oriented, and that often conforms to this certain "rockabilly-hipster-cool" sense of style that I see so many of our members with. So that, when a larger person with that same sense of style posts, they also get major kudos. But when someone (usually a bit older) posts a more "mainstream" outfit, it gets less comments.

This is entirely natural, as this community is about fashion as much as activism, and the medium of LJ is still somewhat skewed to the young anyways. But let's think about what that *might* mean... younger people *might* be more likely to be inbetweenie or "less fat", where older people (who have had more years, possibly more health problems, etc.) might be more likely to be "more fat". Younger people tend to have more disposable income for things like clothes and accessories (not more income, just more *disposable* income). They also tend to have more time to think about it all, as they are not *usually* juggling kids, work, etc.

So - I'm not able to really put all these thoughts into a nice little summary thesis statement, but I guess I'm just saying that I think all this works together, to both ensure that the younger (often slimmer) bodies do get more attention, as well as possibly more posts. Those who are larger/older/more mainstream (or just not conforming to the current "anti-conformity" uniform) are going to attract less "OMG You're So Pretty!", and less comments in general. BUT, that's no reason to stop posting, it's just a reason for those of us in the latter category to remember to take a moment and post support for those of us brave enough to post!

Hope that made any sense - early in the am still...

[info]cyclothemia

March 20 2008, 13:49:28 UTC 4 years ago

Well...

I know that the posts I've said "OMG- HOTT!" have generally been women who're smiling, obviously comfortable in the clothes they're wearing, and dressed in colors/shapes that really work for them.

I guess the size thing isn't what I notice- I'm far too "ooh shiny" for that. I notice bright colors, sexy hair and makeup, and funky looks.

I may not feel the same about pastel pantsuits. :)

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[info]walkingthewalk

March 20 2008, 13:33:49 UTC 4 years ago

Yes, it is difficult to find clothing for an hourglass figure at junior's stores, because most clothing in that size range is designed for a straight-hipped figure with B-or-C cup breasts.

Really? I am very proportionate from my shoulders to waist to hips, yet I have a hard time finding clothes in my size 16/18. Most of the clothes I seem to find are made for women with big breasts and hips. I have a big stomach and smaller hips and breasts, and everything makes me look pregnant. In jeans, I usually have to go up a size to make the jeans fit me in the waist, yet then they sag in the hips and butt because I'm smaller there. I can't wear these empire waist or babydoll shirts or etc. because they hang down too much where another woman might fill it up in the top and make me look pregnant.

[info]chavvah

March 20 2008, 14:34:16 UTC 4 years ago

I have a big stomach and smaller hips and breasts, and everything makes me look pregnant.

Dude, right here. I am a 18/20 straight-hipped B-cup, and nothing I try on at LB or Torrid is designed to fit me. Most plus size clothing assumes larger breasts and hips and smaller waist.

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[info]distruggo

March 20 2008, 14:13:00 UTC 4 years ago

I feel as though the place of an inbetweenie in a fat arena is just that, an inbetweenie. I feel as though it would be unfair for this community to discount inbetweenie postings, and while I am aware that it probably will not happen, I would just like to throw in my two cents. I'm a solid in-betweenie, apple shaped, 200 or so lbs. at 5'7-8"ish, and a 38D bra. By definition, regardless of the number that is in the tags of my clothes, this makes me fat. I have a solid belly, big boobs, wide hips, with slimmer legs and arms. Therefore, I enjoy seeing outfits put together by women of my size.

I also appreciate, however, outfits posted by women who are much larger than me, because even though I might not be able to wear their clothes, I can draw inspiration from the way they dress as well, whether it's with sexy cleavage or belly-hiding or even "this is my first time trying on a sleeveless top...does it look okay?", which are all, of course, issues we all face.

I feel as though this community is called fatshionista for a reason...it's about women who are at the larger end of the size spectrum coming together to gripe about clothes, problems with fit, and other general fatty issues. In large print in the community's info it reads "We are a diverse fat-positive, anti-racist, disabled-friendly, trans-inclusive, queer-flavored, non-gender-specific community, open to everyone." Shouldn't this include all ends of the fat spectrum? I understand that this community has been overrun with inbetweenies recently, and that a lot of the "real" plus-sized members are undoubtedly feeling underrepresented, and I think that it's sad that many of our members have to feel that way. I usually choose to stay out of the fat politics aspects of this community, but isn't a little hypocritical of members in this community, which is supposed to be "diverse and fat-positive", to be biased towards inbetweenies, when they themselves know how it feels to be biased against? I think it's ironic that in a community supporting fat women, there is a standard that you're not fat enough, and doesn't that itself invalidate what we are trying to work towards?

I usually don't post OOTDs because my camera is on the fritz, however, as a lover of fashion and someone who has been involved in the fashion world since about age 6, I love helping other members by offering constructive criticisms and advice on their outfits. It's nice to feel good and have someone compliment you, whether it's coming from a fellow sizs 26, or a size 14. I feel as though perhaps we should move towards making OOTDs more constructive, as opposed to the Paris Hilton-esque "That's hot!", so that all members feel included and comfortable posting.

[info]onceupon

March 20 2008, 14:21:29 UTC 4 years ago

I think the issue is that inbetweenies enjoy a privileged status in the community, not that they aren't welcome to post - I know I'd never support a rule saying inbetweenies aren't allowed to participate because that WOULD be ridiculous. But because that privilege seems to go entirely unacknowledged, it creates an atmosphere in which many larger fatties aren't comfortable participating. I think, ultimately, it goes back to the whole "if THAT is fat, what am I, some kind of whale?" question that gets asked when really thin people start talking about how fat they are.

[info]caereala

4 years ago

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[info]normawilahmina

March 20 2008, 14:20:48 UTC 4 years ago

I think that part of what gets confused when we discuss this here is the difficulty in finding ready to wear clothes that will flatter a variety of different shapes, and the difficulty in finding clothes at all.

Most of what I hear from inbetweenie friends and members of this community falls in the "finding clothes that flatter their specific shape" category. Most of those issues can be addressed by altering an item that is too large. My problem with clothing, as a person in the 26/28 range, is finding something that will actually close, as in button or zip, around my very large body. Shopping for people larger than myself is even more frustrating, and often requires the internet or catalogs and a credit or debit card.

As one gets larger, one's clothing and style options shrink exponentially. I freely admit that I get annoyed listening to people with so many more options than I have complain about how few options they have because they're so fat. This is pretty low on my list of annoyances, though.

I think posting, "hey, I got this outfit at the Gap in this size, and my measurements are this, that, and this, how do I look?" is a lot less annoying to me that "shirt, pants, sweater from the Gap." To me, listing the measurements and sizes makes the post seem helpful, like the poster is trying to help other community members find cute clothes that fit. Simply saying you got your whole outfit at a straight size store, on the other hand, makes me wonder why you're even here. You know? If someone does all of their shopping in straight size stores, what do they know about the difficulty of finding cute plus size clothes?

[info]ehlasandra

March 20 2008, 14:47:49 UTC 4 years ago

This is a topic that I've been trying to collect my thoughts about... keyword there is "trying" :)

I do know that it seems like everyone has trouble finding stuff that fits and looks good. Some people have more challenges with this than others.

A while ago, I had *one* pair of pants that fit and looked ok. I went to numerous common US brick and mortar stores, finding nothing. Eventually, out of desperation, I gathered enough courage to go to Avenue [I didn't have the funds at the time to do online orders and returns at a lot of places]. I chose Avenue over LB because I thought the store would be pretty empty at the time of day I went [and it was]. The 2 salespeople gave me "looks" when I entered... somehow I walked up to them, told them about the pants I was wearing and asked them if they had any suggestions for what I was looking for. After they realized how terrified I was [I'm not outgoing in most situations] and that I was, in fact, wearing a size 16, they were really helpful.

For me, it seems like I'm often not fat (or thin or anything like that) until people find out a number. My size at a certain store, my weight, my measurements, something. Upon finding out that number, their brain tells them what category I fall into based on their experiences. Certain family members, for example, seem to really think I look great... then they hear the numbers and it doesn't work with their idea of what those numbers should translate to in a physical person.

[info]bezhig81

March 20 2008, 15:14:50 UTC 4 years ago

in my mind there is a simple solution...

while I can see the value of this conversation it does sort of seem like the oppression olympics is happening here.

Also people are complaining about the frequency and kind of comments given. First of all you do not know what is exactly in the mind of the commenter and if a simple "pretty" makes you uncomfortable because you feel like kudos to a certain person is a rejection of you- well you are projecting. It is unfair, unrealistic, and silly to ask the mods to be the thought police.

If some young hot thing is posting a picture all decked out in whatever trendy pieces they love, its by far more likely they are doing it for validation than to make you feel bad.

Basically I think people need to be the change they want to see in the community rather than asking others to change how they do things. If you are a size whatever and you want to see more of that size them post pictures of yourself, post pictures of people similar that you admire, compliment peeps that embody that.

[info]prettydark

March 20 2008, 15:29:50 UTC 4 years ago

Re: in my mind there is a simple solution...

Hey there I'm letting you know I'm friending you. We are in a few of the same communities.

[info]bezhig81

4 years ago

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[info]prettydark

4 years ago

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[info]valree

4 years ago

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[info]wasabirobot

4 years ago

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[info]dragonfly1867

March 20 2008, 15:20:08 UTC 4 years ago

I'm trying to make a post that doesn't sound as if I'm protesting my own right to belong, I hope I'm successful. I'm a size 14/16 but definitely not an hourglass. I carry most of my weight in my stomach and the c-section I had 5 years ago doesn't help. Not only that, but at 5 feet, my weight still places me in the obese category--we were denied insurance at one point because my weight was a "health risk" and I'm rather dreading a routine visit to the doctor next week. I've started making my own clothes because everything in the stores looks ridiculous on me, I can't find anything that fits my short, apple shaped body.


I do agree on the curvy=fat thing, I remember when people were talking about Jennifer Lopez's big butt and it looked normal sized to me, she looked tiny to me. But also, even the size thing is tough, because me at a size 14 looks very different than someone who is 5'8" and a size 14.

I don't really know what the answer is, and in looking over the opinions expressed, it seems there isn't a simple one. I'm not even sure where my place is, because despite what I've said about my size, I know I've never experienced the discrimination some of the other members of this group have

[info]onceupon

March 20 2008, 15:41:58 UTC 4 years ago

The experience of other people doesn't lessen your own experience. I think we all just need to be aware and thoughtful about the ways in which our experiences differ.

[info]enchanted_black

4 years ago

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[info]thatbitchfiona

March 20 2008, 16:18:57 UTC 4 years ago

Well, for me, I think it is just a consequence of people expecting different things out of OOTD posts. Aside from general advice/criticism/opinions, OOTDs do two things in my mind- show where to buy great wardrobe pieces, and show how to dress a fat body. For the first, you're right, neither clothes from thrift stores OR straight sizes help most people in the community. For the second, any outfit can be helpful- a member might see someone with a similar body shape, even at a different size(!) and have a revelation- "I thought that I would look ridiculous in skinny jeans/leggings/kimono tops/etc, but you look fantastic! Now I can go look for them!"

I mean, I think this is a valuable conversation to have, but I don't think that a poster wearing "surprisingly stretchy" straight-sized clothing is offering nothing to the larger fatshionista. There's still plenty to take away from every OOTD.

[info]coco73

March 21 2008, 02:31:44 UTC 4 years ago

Agreed. More often than not, I see outfits on people with whom I do not share a size or shape that I think could work for me anyway. I think the ability of the viewer to see how they could revamp the outfit, or pairing of pieces they may not have considered is a really important.

[info]beautyofgrey

March 20 2008, 16:34:07 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  March 20 2008, 16:36:16 UTC

I just want to know, what are you if you're a 16 top (straight size) and an 18/20W (up to 22) bottom? Other than a fat appley-pear, I mean. :P I'm like half-n-half, baby. :P

I'm glad you brought this up, even if some people don't want to hear it. I obviously enjoy some fair amount of priveledge when it comes to shopping for my top half, and I obviously encounter some difficulties when shopping for my gunt, butt, and thighs. (A-line skirts and vintage dresses for life, yo.)

I think the key here is for people to realize that when they address the community, even with "mall clothes", that they should probably take into account the fact that many people here won't be able to fit into the item.

At the same time, if there's a period of time where a slew of larger Fats, or large-chested women post, then I sit back and think "damn, I couldn't fit any of that!" (I admit, that happens less often here.) And sometimes, yeah, I sniffle on sales post friday when the great stuff is in size 26. And sometimes I throw myself a pity party about my body, because my waist doesn't naturally curve in an hourglassy fashion. But you know what? Those are my issues! And I try really hard not to project them onto other people here! And I really, really appreciate when a size 14 poster makes an OOTD post, and makes a point to be sensitive to the larger members.

I mean, EVERYONE has trouble finding flattering clothes. Clothes that emphasize the lines we want emphasized, based on our personal aesthetic.* But let's be honest. Flattering, fashionable, beautiful clothing is REALLY HARD TO COME BY the bigger you get. Walk into any box store plus-size section and fall over laughing at the awkard floral prints in heinous colors and wide-legged cropped pants or uber-cheesy bermuda shorts for summer. Then glance around at the women's section and look at all the hoochie short shorts designed to show your fullest leg up to the gentile curve of your bum. Or a belly shirt. FIND THAT IN A SIZE 26! I DARE YOU! (Admittedly, and thankfully, belly shirts seem to have gone out of style. Thank god!) Or even just something pretty, since I'm not really partial to booty-shorts or belly-shirts.

That said, I think that many larger fats, my gunt/butt included, don't post more because it's harder to find fun, fashionable clothing in larger sizes. I mean, really, if the market suddenly poored out an abundance of affordable, well-fitted, plus-size clothing in sizes 20 and up, wouldn't there be more posts here?

And I'm sorry to all the inbetweenies (my top half included), who have complaints about not being able to find stuff that fits. We all have that issue, but in my bust's experience, it's a lot easier to find something fashionable in those sizes.

[info]delicatetbone

March 20 2008, 17:57:41 UTC 4 years ago

I've mostly stopped posting OOTD here because I've noticed that a lot of folks who post photos here end up getting mocked on snark ljs communities.

But I agree with what you've said -- and it's why I originally started the lj inbetweenie community a few years ago. Maybe inbetweenie folks would feel more comfortable posting photos there instead?

[info]astragali

March 20 2008, 19:04:42 UTC 4 years ago

That's why I won't post photos.

[info]elizawrites

4 years ago

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[info]delicatetbone

4 years ago

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[info]pickleboot

March 20 2008, 18:06:36 UTC 4 years ago

having been on both ends of this- at my heaviest i was a 22/24, i am now somewhere around a 14/16/18 depending on cut/fabric/medications(yeah- meds can add five or ten pounds, and that will make me go up a size or so for a few months. i love steroids.) i find it hard to shop no matter what- i have large breasts, and nothing is cut for that. right now i wear a 38f bra- finding a button down shirt or dress that fits is next to impossible. and those elusive size 16's? those are the first that sell. at least around here, they are the hardest size to find at places like the gap. if i luck out, it is because i get there and find them right away. it's just as frustrating now as when i was 100lbs heavier. and there are weeks, even months that i am no longer an inbetweenie because of medication- i will gain 30lbs in a month and go up a size or three from taking steroids because of a flare up from whatever it is i have- some undiagnosed neurological condition that is going along with, or exacerbated by, chronic intractable migraines. so there are some of us who are inbetweenies who do fit in the fat arena, simply because we have the same fit issues, just in different ways. we might fit into the larger straight sizes, but those straight sizes are hard to come by, are often not cut perfectly for us, and require extensive tailoring. not to mention they do not account for larger breasts, shoulders and other areas that are just not the same proportions in our smaller counterparts.

it's frustrating all around. i have never been tiny. in junior high i wore a 10. in high school i wore a 12. that was considered fat. in college i did not care anymore, because i had friends that really modeled positive body image, but i dated a guy that shattered that. it took years, and a husband that loves me at any size to recover that positive image. yes, i lost weight, and i did it for health reasons- pcos is a bitch, and i would do it again. but as an inbetweenie now, i do feel that i am more sensitive having been on both sides of the equation, as it were. i am not even going to go into vanity sizing, which makes things more confusing and annoying, tbh.

so- my two cents, for all they are worth.

[info]bezhig81

March 20 2008, 18:14:52 UTC 4 years ago

not truly related but..

I have pcos too! and I also have the same problem with button downs because wehn you finally do find one there is all this space in the tummy area.

[info]pickleboot

4 years ago

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[info]notblueatall

March 20 2008, 18:22:29 UTC 4 years ago

I get how you feel in the opposite sense. I'm around a size 28-30. The Friday sales posts rarely have anything I could wear, but I also love to post my stuff for those gals in my size who feel the same.
I disagree with you on the hourglas thing. I don't think this community has ever stated anything remotely biased on figure. I think everyone's pretty good about that actually. I'm a pear, but I never feel left out.

[info]lachupacabra

March 20 2008, 18:23:50 UTC 4 years ago


i think the bottom line to this issue really
is that ppl must actually, truly like & accept
themselves exactly the way they are &
not need any validation from anyone on the outside.

easy to say - very fucking hard to do.
:(

& just so yall know, im older and DEFINITELY
plus sized (39yrs & about 240lbs @ 5 feet tall).

[info]uptightprude

March 20 2008, 20:08:30 UTC 4 years ago

This thread has made me de-lurk.. at least for a day.
But that is exactly why I started reading this community.
We are all on our own journeys (ugh. I hate myself for saying something so trite).
There are so many people here who exude a confidence and true inner-like that I truly admire.

[info]astragali

4 years ago

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[info]lachupacabra

4 years ago

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[info]emanuelle

March 20 2008, 23:00:38 UTC 4 years ago

I don't have anything very meaningful to add that hasn't been said by much more eloquent people before me.

I just realized that at ~170 lbs I appear one of the smaller members here.
We don't do plus size here in Germany. Whatever the reason, we don't seem to do fat, either, I think I'm one of the fattest people I've ever met. So it never occured to me that I'd be an "inbetweenie", and I sincerely hope people aren't angered by my posts.
I really don't feel very privileged. We hardly have clothing in plus sizes in stores, you either aim for straight sizes that go up to a 16 or so if you're lucky, and then there's some departments aimed at older ladies that carry one or two potato sacks. I have hardly any clothes, I spend weeks at a time trying to find that one top that's stretchy enough to fit, or that one pair of jeans in the men's department that fit my belly. You'll laugh, but I can hardly look at Torrid's website without starting to cry at the thought that there's stores that carry such incredible clothes for fat people, somewhere across the pond.

All members' posts here a joy and an inspiration for me. I don't have access to any of the clothes you post, but just seeing how clothes look like on people who aren't thin is so amazing and important to me! It has helped me a great deal in trying to find new styles and looks for myself, and members much larger than myself are some of my greatest inspirations here. I'm so impressed and intimidated by the fashion sense, style and poise of many members here that I rarely dare to comment, because I have nothing useful to add. Also, you mostly talk about things that are only available in the US, where I'm no help whatsoever.

If people are worried that no one cares about their fatshion, maybe we should remember to write "wow you look great" the next time instead of just thinking it.

[info]sweeny_todd

March 21 2008, 00:39:40 UTC 4 years ago

before I joined this community, I hadn't even heard of inbetweenies. I don't consider myself to be one, and yet I fit into that size range (at about an 18-20, although I am much heavier than you!)

I find that most of the talk is US-centric too, but as most of the members are from north america, that is to be expected.

I keep thinking that I need to post more, but don't feel like I have much in the way of fashion to contribute at the moment!

[info]bagfish

4 years ago

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[info]emanuelle

4 years ago

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[info]buttercup_rocks

4 years ago

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[info]emanuelle

4 years ago

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[info]emanuelle

4 years ago

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[info]buttercup_rocks

4 years ago

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[info]and_old_lace

March 21 2008, 03:26:55 UTC 4 years ago

thanks for posting this. it's really interesting to see what everyone has to say (not being an inbetweenie myself - i was pretty surprised by how on the offensive people are being. not what i expected)...
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